Men leer when they are on their own, too.

They do not just hunt in packs.

Yes - builders are the worst culprits for a wolf-whistle over their tea, biscuits, crumpled cement-chapped copies of the Daily Sport/Star but they leer and stare when on their own, just less overtly than if they were in a laddish clan.

Dick for brains is dick for brains - whether plural or singular.

Now, as for the stupidity then let me put it this way: as evolution advanced, women also started to consider other characteristics of men. Now, all men kind of didn’t get it. So they are trying the monkey-like behaviour. Some women feel insulted by it. Some feel just (at least) a little flattered by it (I’m a man, I will never get some things I’m afraid). The point is that different males use different techniques to get women. For some reason men like this have not died out..

“General rule of thumb: if you wouldn’t be comfortable having someone say it to you, don’t say it to someone else.” — If a woman would shout to me in a grocery store “Oh, nice arse, baby!”, I ‘ll probably look amazed for a while, and the I would laugh and conclude that this was a wierd/funny woman. I would probably think for a couple of seconds if she was being ironical, but nevertheless. I would take it as a joke, not harassment.

When I communicate with women I actually am not being anything. I just communicate. I don’t try to be anything. I don’t pass as a macho and I don’t pass as a sensitive nice guy, though I do try to be nice to other people (depends on people of course). Basically I simply observe and talk when there is actually something to talk about or I want to have fun. Of course “funny talk” that might involve dirty jokes does need our relation to be longer. Jokes like that are not something that you would use when communicating with a stranger, unless you’re trying to get rid of them. The thing is I DO TREAT ALL PEOPLE LIKE PEOPLE. I don’t see another way. I won’t deny that I see women a little differently than men. However, I do think this is normal?

“If you comment on a woman who doesn’t like it, you can ruin her day, or her week, or trigger flashbacks of her trauma, or cause her to spend the rest of her walk in a paranoid fog, or…”
From this I gather that women are much more susceptible to dirty remarks. Men and women are different and understand things differently. By the way, males and females even have different reproducing tactics. Males invest everywhere they can and women invest a lot in one place. Women are actually very different from men.

It might seem like a cliche, but to my mind this is the reason why men and women can never be fully equal. The only solution is losing genders. No genders, no problem. Women give birth and are thus often much more concerned than men (which is extremely bad). What else? All women should learn to do housework (as in drilling holes, fixing cars etc.) and men should learn cooking at school. We should also make rules like 50% of company leaders have to be female and 50% of Parliament leaders should be female. We would come to an extreme absurd. We would really have to reorganise the whole social system. However, whether you like it or not, this would include chemical influence as well (seen “Equilibrium”?), because human beings are big machines operating on chemical laws.

To conclude: As far as I understand, feminists want to change the world. However, from my point of view in Western society things are sort of already under control. People who use force to do anything bad to other people are criminals. Family violence is violence and is treated as such. Patriarchal society is Middle-ages’ society. Changing gender roles, making men and women equal is not the answer. Ultimate equality is an illusion. In the Soviet Union, men and women were supposed to be equal. I’m not sure if this was the reality.

I’m sure you know that Middle-age understanding of gender roles exists in some parts of the world. This is what needs change in my opinion.

I have one important question as well. I already posted it somewhere in this blog: what are the grave problems in western society according to feminists that can be changed without harassing men’s rights? Is it the dirty jokes that men make?

P.S. Ah, and as for the socioeconomic standard and looks, then this is not exactly something that you can talk a lot about. How many times can you say “He’s a lawyer” or “he sells hot dogs”? As for personality –> this topic can never be fully analyzed.

Well…

Another problem is the controversial role of man in today’s society.

“Today’s society” is patriarchal - and yes, the patriarchy hurts men as well as women. Any time any group is divided from another group, both groups suffer, whether that division is physical (segregation) or social (division of genders).

But where do you draw the line between harassment and pick-up lines?

General rule of thumb: if you wouldn’t be comfortable having someone say it to you, don’t say it to someone else. This requires a little more thought than it seems - many women are propositioned/harassed in completely inappropriate settings, such as the grocery store or the bus stop, and frustration builds up. That has to be taken into account, as well.

Here’s another idea, since I’m assuming we’re talking about making comments to a stranger here: if you don’t know her, and you’re not in an area in which it is reasonable to assume she’s looking for sex (certain bars, certain clubs, etc.), stick to non-sexual comments. How would you compliment your mother, or your sister?

Prefer not to go the compliment route? Try being genuinely funny. Making someone really laugh shouldn’t cause the man to lose face.

And, frankly, it’s a bit disturbing that men need to control women even while supposedly appreciating them. That’s the problem in a nutshell.

And don’t stare. That’s plain rude, as Grandma says.

As for your last paragraph, I have two problems with it. First, you have to realize that an awful lot of women are socialized to like the men you describe. I’m talking those good Christian wives whose entire lives revolve around their men. Second, I think you’ll find that a lot of women want someone who genuinely respects them. Many men who try to be sensitive and nice are constantly drawing attention to that fact (that they’re trying), and sensitivity, kindness, and respect are not things you can draw attention to (not your own, anyway) without rendering them moot. Most of the sensitive, nice men you’re talking about come across to women as sleazy and manipulative, trying to score cheap points, which is another kind of insult, and one that’s very hard to respond to.

I feel odd mentioning this, since I’m asexual, but the only men I ever considered dating were ones who weren’t trying to impress me, with niceness or with macho-ness. They were the ones who just treated me like a friend.

And, in my experience, most women, when talking amongst themselves about men they like, focus on personality, not looks or socioeconomic standing. Sure, looks count for a lot, and women want handsome men. But many, many women will fall for someone who may not fit their ideals of masculine beauty but treats them like people.

That’s what it boils down to. Treat women like people. Assume that the woman you’re commenting on is one who really doesn’t like those comments. Assume the woman you’re inclined to stare at really doesn’t like being looked at. You’re far less likely to harass someone that way.

One last thing, and my long rant is over: if you don’t comment on a woman who likes such comments, the worst that will happen is that she just won’t get a comment - she can deal with that, if she’s any kind of mature. If you comment on a woman who doesn’t like it, you can ruin her day, or her week, or trigger flashbacks of her trauma, or cause her to spend the rest of her walk in a paranoid fog, or… The list goes on, but I think you understand me.

Men and women are different and thus use different ways when communicating. (This doesn’t mean I am defending the wistles and the inappropriate words.) You see, every man doesn’t harass women the way you described. The problem is not patriarchal society. The problem is stupidity.

Another problem is the controversial role of man in today’s society. You see, men are expected to be macho-like, successful, but mainly never to be humble. On the other hand men are also expected to behave according to rules of equality between men and women. Some men succeed in both being successful and also very nice to everyone, but not everybody does.

The harassment part is really tricky. Harassment is very bad. But where do you draw the line between harassment and pick-up lines? Some women feel offended, others turn it into a joke, some might just smile and say nothing.

One would ask, “but why do you need the silly jokes? Can’t you simply make a compliment?” But the difference here for men is very big. When a man makes a compliment, he loses his macho-thing and becomes vulnerable. The woman is then in control. Some men can accept that, some use dirty pick-up lines. This way they were simply having fun. No feelings, because men don’t cry.

It’s probably confusing, but my main point is that men are expected to be sensitive and nice. This would be OK, if women were looking for sensitive and nice men, but that’s often the very oppiste of what women want. Women tend to like men who are taller than them and earn more, who are well-built (macho-style), and are respected (and among men you always have a contest going on with other men, just being nice isn’t the aswer).

Correct me if I’m wrong..

Men, on the other hand, do all of the things I’ve listed, combining bonding with other men or checking out women with harassment to the point that many of them cannot separate the two. (”It’s what guys do!” THAT’s the problem.

Take a page from our book for once - if you have to talk to your buddies about the women you see, do so privately, out of earshot of the woman, and not while staring aggressively at her.